Is Jesus God? – Part 1 – “My Lord and my God!”

24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!”

But he said to them, “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.”

26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

(John 20:24-31)

This week we are going to look at the question “Is Jesus Christ God?” In this passage doubting Thomas finally believes that the Lord rose from the dead and exclaims that he is God. Was he justified in this? Is there any other scriptural evidence that Jesus is God? Is this claim consistent with the salvation message? Join us this week for an exploration of this eternally important question.

Part 2: Jesus’ Claims
Part 3: The Beliefs of the Disciples and the New Testament Witness
Part 4: Jesus Christ and the Attributes of God
Part 5: The End

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33 Responses to Is Jesus God? – Part 1 – “My Lord and my God!”

  1. Ronald says:

    Regarding John 20:28, the question is raised concerning Thomas’ double usage of the definite article, most literally translated: “the lord of me and the god [THEOS] of me.” Did Thomas use the definite article twice to speak of two persons, first the son to whom he was directly speaking as “the lord of me” and then did he turn his attention to the Heavenly Father in heaven in saying “the God of me”? I don’t know. If Thomas meant his whole expression to refer to only one person, only one definite article would have been needed: “the Lord and God of me”.

    But if Thomas was referring to Jesus when he said “the THEOS of me”, was he thinking that Jesus wasYahweh, the only Most High of the universe, standing there before him? If Thomas did indeed refer to Jesus as “the THEOS of me”, we find no such custom all through the New Testament of referring to Jesus as “my God”, nor “our God”. The Bible writers continuously distinguish the Heavenly Father as “God”, and Jesus as the Son of the God, the one made Lord and Christ by God. If such a doctrine as “Jesus is Yahweh” is so all-important as many today seem to assume, we should expect such to be clearly stated many times throughout the New Testament, but actually what we find is just the opposite. So if Thomas refers to Jesus as his God in John 20:28, we have an exception to the general rule, and should seek to determine in what sense Thomas might have thought of Jesus as his God in harmony with the general distinction that is made throughout the rest of the New Testament. Thus, in harmony with the Hebraic tradition of applying the same words that are translated as “God” to others as rulers, princes, mighty ones, etc., Thomas, if he was applying the term THEOS, to Jesus, would have thought of Jesus as his mighty ruler, his mighty prince, not in the sense of the only Most High, Yahweh.

    In service of Jesus and his God,
    Ronald
    http://godandson.reslight.net

    • Hector says:

      As it is written “My Lord and my God!” not “My Lord, My God” the word “and” signifies thomas is not pertaining to other, but the same person whom he called Lord.

  2. So what you’re saying is if Thomas called Jesus God he didn’t really mean it? That doesn’t make any sense. The same word for God (Theos) is used of Jesus here, there is no difference. And if it’s not true it would be blasphemy.

  3. Nick70 says:

    Ronald,

    You said:

    If such a doctrine as “Jesus is Yahweh” is so all-important as many today seem to assume, we should expect such to be clearly stated many times throughout the New Testament, but actually what we find is just the opposite.

    In point of fact, this is not what we would expect when reading the Bible. The problem here is that you’re applying a modern Western mindset to ancient documents from the Eastern Mediteranian. The writers of the Bible lived in a high context culture and held a shared set of assumptions and presuppositions. This is why we see things such as the deity and preexistence of Christ asserted and never defended throughout Paul’s epistles (the earliest witnesses) and the Gospels. These things that were taken for granted don’t need to be “clearly stated many times” because they were already a part of the fabric of earliest Christianity. I’d recommend Larry Hurtado’s Lord Jesus Christ: Devotion to Jesus in Earliest Christianity as well as Gordon D. Fee’s Pauline Christology: An Exegetical-Theological Study to see these points fleshed out.

    And as far as Jesus being identified as Yahweh is concerned I’d direct you to the various OT scriptures applied to Jesus that were originally spoken of Yahweh (e.g. Joel 2:32 cf. Rom. 10:13).

  4. Greg Logan says:

    Actually this is a very simple passage – but not for the Western mind. The Western mind automatically assumes that any use of the term God automatically means the receiver is the Creator (Jehovah) Himself. This is incorrect. The term God or god is a title of dignity and honor – men are called God in the Scriptures (you can do your own Bible study to confirm) and frequently outside of scriptures. Thomas was simply using a term of high honor to recognize the position that Jesus held in Thomas’s mind and heart – it is NOT to be understood as an ontologically relevant statement (there is no basis in the context nor in the term itself to assume this).

    The fact is that Jesus HAS A GOD – Jn 20:17 only a few verses before establishes that whoever Jesus is HE IS NOT GOD THE CREATOR. Of course there are probably two hundred verses that plainly state this throughout the NT but these have been ignored in order for tradition to darken men’s minds. The choice is yours – you can believe in our One God – the Father (ICor 8:6) and the MAN Christ Jesus (now glorified sitting at the right hand of God) (ITim 2:5) or you can continue in your tradition.

    Best,
    Greg

    • Doug says:

      If Jesus is not Immanuel, God with us, then He cannot save you and you are dead already in your sins. Be warned. God is not mocked.. “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God”

      Christ came into this world, He was and is God, He died on the cross for the sins of the world, after 3 days He rose from the dead, He ascended back up to Heaven and one day He is coming back with power and great glory.

      Father forgive them that do not see and bring them into the Light in the Name of Jesus Christ.

      John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

      Stop being deceived and believe in the Living God.

      May God open your eyes by His mercy.

      • Jason Adam says:

        So well put, God bless you & thank you.

      • Anonymous says:

        Hi Doug

        Jesus IS Emmanuel – however, that does not speak to his ontology – that speaks to his what he represented.

        The notion that the man Christ Jesus cannot save you from your sins is a blatant contradiction with scripture. You can start with ITim2:5 – and then cap it off with ICor15:21 (NOTE: I have used scripture – you have just made a statement based on a tradition).

        I believe in the living God – the Father (ICor8:6) the only true God (Jn17:3).

        The blind man claimed to be “Ego eimi” (I am) in Jn9:9 also… “Ego eimi” does NOT equal Jehovah in the OT – review Ex 3:14 in the Septuagint (Greek translation which was referenced by NT writers).

        Again, I give you scripture – you simply give text that are entirely unrelated to your point. I would work with you but your fleshly spirit indicates that you are not interested in searching these things out to see if they be so – so I leave you with these basic truths including this final fact:

        Your Christology denies that Jesus was a human PERSON – only that Jesus had a human NATURE. Therefore, you don’t have a genuine MAN in your Christology – BUT scripture is clear that we need a genuine MAN in order to be saved (ITim2:5, ICor15:21).

        Sincerely,
        In Christ,
        Greg

      • Please allow me to answer you briefly. I do plan on writing again on this topic in more detail very soon.

        When we say that Jesus Christ is God, we do not deny he was also a human being. We are not Gnostics, claiming that he only appeared human. “The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us” (John 1:14). There are many passages that point to Christ’s humanity.

        However the truth is he was also God in the flesh. If either of these conditions – his humanity or his deity – were not in effect, Christ could save no one. He has to be God in order to be the perfect sacrifice for sin. He has to be man in order to mediate our salvation and to be able to die in our place. Christ is the second Adam.

        I do not know anyone who tries to say that the “Ego eimi” of John 9:9 proves Jesus is the I AM of Exodus 3:14. However many have spoken of the Lord Jesus’ words in John 8:58: “Before Abraham was, I am!” The context of this passage shows his claim to be God. The Pharisees apparently understood that this is exactly what he meant, because they immediately tried to stone him to death for blasphemy. This did in fact invoke the memory of God speaking to Moses, “I AM THAT I AM.”

  5. John Graham says:

    The Jews wanted to kill Jesus because “he, a man, claimed to be God” or made himself equal to God. If his enemies understood who he claimed to be, why can’t we?

  6. carol tenukas says:

    I AM A CHRISTAIN AND SO ARE YOU. JESUS IS COMING AND I CANNOT WAIT AS YOU ALSO I AM SURE. I NEVER FELL IN LOVE WITH JESUS UNTIL I FOUND OUT IN HIS WORD THAT JESUS WAS GOD IN A FLESH BODY, JUST LIKE OURS. HOW GOD LOVES US!!!!!! IT IS A SIMPLE MESSAGE REALLY. THE WHOLE BIBLE TEACHES US TO TRUST GOD AND NEVER BELIEVE A HUMAN WITHOUT CHECKING OUT WHAT SAYETH THE LORD. AMEN

  7. Luis says:

    It saddens me to read this, but it is to be expected. This heresy has been around since before 325AD, it’s called arianism and is named after Arius. The only reason it’s stil around is because we continue to stray from the one true teaching of the Apostles, which was never ment to be “Sola scriptura”. But as it stands our pride continues to get the best of us and we tend to think that we know better than 2000 years of tradition. But in case you don’t want to accept the teaching handed down by the Apostles through Christ’s Church for the last 2000 years, here’s one of the many examples in the bible pointing at Christ’s divinity:

    John Cahpter 14

    7″(I)If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you (J)know Him, and have (K)seen Him.”
    8(L)Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”

    9Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? (M)He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

    But I’m sure you’ll tell me what he really meant to say.

  8. Joshua says:

    “I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.”

    You’re adding onto it and saying that he did not mean actually God as the one and only God but just the son of God.

    Jesus said “Before Abraham was I AM” What did he mean? Jesus commanded demons to flea from people with his own words. Jesus commanded angels. Jesus had the authority over heaven and earth.

    “And behold, Jesus met them and greeted them. And they came up and took hold of His feet and worshiped Him. 10 Then Jesus said to them, “Do not be afraid; go and take word to My brethren to leave for Galilee, and there they will see Me.”

    Wait they worshiped him? But it says that you are not supposed to worship any other god but the one and only God. So why didn’t Jesus contest and say “No don’t worship me!” Because Jesus is God, the one and only.

  9. Linda says:

    If Jesus is not GOD the creator what does the following verses mean?

    John 1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

  10. Linda says:

    Made a mistake, the verse should say? John 1: 1 – 3

  11. Jude Fernandes says:

    One man’s sin bought Gods wrath in the world when adam disobeyed God, but another man’s death on the cross bought salvation for all mankind. The consequences of our sins or the curse was borne by him & with it was nailed on the cross. I believe in the Lord who is holy, without blemish,the last sacrificial lamb which was slaughtered so that man could again live in the garden of eden under God’s grace. You have been healed by his wounds. Noone can save u except God that means he is God the second person in the holy trinity

  12. Rony L. Calunod says:

    Jesus said: Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? (John 10:34). If man is called “god”, Jesus is also god, a sanctified one. Jesus is the one whom God had promise to the decendants of Adam that unless they reach out and eat the fruit of the tree that gives life they cannot live forever (Gen. 3:22). Jesus said: I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman (John 15:1). He who believes in me and the one who sent me shall live forever.
    God is all-knowing. When God created Adam (man), He knows that Adam will fall to sin because Adam is a limited being. This is why God put the tree of life in the garden to be Adam’s salvation (Thus, Jesus is already there before Abraham was John 8:58). Jesus is already part of God’s plan, he is already in God’s mind when He created mankind (please see John 1:1-5). God’s plan is to create man in His image and likeness. The earth, the seas and everything in them were created by God so that man, a material being, could exist.

    For your comments: you can email me at: ronycalunod@yahoo.com

  13. Henry says:

    Of course Jesus is God and Jesus is Yahwa
    And it is Yahwa not Yahweh like what somebody wrote above.
    When Thomas said my Lord my God he meant Jesus for sure.
    Now if Jesus is on the right side of God that is the biggest proof that Jesus is God.
    How?
    First God has no begining and no end so how he has right and left.
    Second if we read John 1:18 we understand how.
    (18
    No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, 12 who is at the Father’s side, has revealed him. )

    He said revealed him and not saw him, if he said that the son saw him it means they are 2 diffrent persons but because they are the same one he used the word revealed.

    Second he said he is at the Father’s side and as we know if the father has no begining it means he has no sides and teach this to Jehova witnesses because they use these verses to proof that Jesus is not God but I use the same verses to proof that they are wrong.

    When the bible talks about Jesus the High Priest he was compared to Malkizadek , do you know why?
    Because the last one had no begining and No end No father and No mother.
    Just to proof That Jesus has no begining and No end and HE IS GOD
    God bless u all.

  14. zach says:

    Let us not forget Phil. 2 “Christ did not consider equality with God something to be grasped but made himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant and being found in appearance as a man he humbled himself and became obedient to death.

    The whole point of the Gospel is that God Became Man to die for our sins. If you understand Phillipians 2 it will explain why the Arian misinterpret the scripture concerning Christ being subject to the Father.

    He was subject to the father not because he wasn’t God but because he voluntarily took on the nature of man. He humbled himself, and he died. That is why Jesus says he didn’t know when the end of the world would come. He BECAME a man, and as a man he voluntarily released his power but not his glory.

    • Greg Logan says:

      Zach

      If you disregard the entire context and disregard the rest of scripture, I could see hwo poor exegesis might result in the traditional conclusion.

      However, the context is focused on humility and servanthood – NOT the ontological identity of Jesus with the Father (which concept is fully excluded from the context).

      The issue of his equality with the Father relates to His postion – it is His position that He did not grasp – but released Himself to rather become a servant.

      The question is – can we, who are not even in such a lofty position, do the same. That is the point of the text.

      Best
      Greg

    • travis says:

      More helpful information

      ilippians 2:6-11 and the Incarnation and Exaltation of Jesus Christ—as YHWH

      6 Who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

      Philippians 2:6-11, known as the Carmen Christi (“Hymn to Christ”)[1] was utilized by the early Christian church to teach and magnify the pre-existence, incarnation, and the full deity of Jesus Christ. The context of Philippians 2 is clear: Paul stresses to the Philippians that they ought to act in a harmonious and humble way. In which Paul instructs them to have an attitude in themselves “which was also in Christ Jesus,”—namely, humility (v. 5).

      Paul then exemplifies the ultimate act of humility: Jesus Christ, God the Son, voluntarily emptied Himself by becoming flesh. In six short passages, Paul provides a beautiful and well defined summary of the gospel of Jesus Christ expressing His essential nature as God (including His pre-existence; v. 6); His Incarnation and cross-work (i.e., His humiliation; vv. 7-8); and His exaltation to the glory of God the Father (vv. 10-11). His role as Mediator involves two states: 1) the state of humiliation and 2) the state of exaltation.

      Note the following exegetical points that underline the theological significance and force of Paul’s high Christological Hymn:

      1. Jesus is presented as God—distinct from God the Father.

      In the first part of verse 6, Paul utilizes very specific terms to express clearly that Jesus Christ was always subsisting as God: “Who although He existed [huparchōn] in the form [morphē; or “nature” NIV] of God [theou]. . . .” (emphasis added). So, when Paul says that Christ “did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” and “He emptied Himself” (vv. 6-7, which we will deal with shortly), these two statements must be interpreted in light of his first statement: Jesus was always “being in very nature God” (NIV).

      The word translated “existed” (“being” KJV, NIV) is huparchōn, which is a present active participle.[2] The participle here indicates a continuous existence or state of continually subsisting.[3] Hence, Jesus did not become the very form or nature of God at a certain point in time, rather He was always existing as God, just as Paul expressed (cf. John 1:18; Heb. 1:3). The same truth is found in John 1:1a: “In the beginning was [ēn] the Word—i.e., the Word was “always existing”[4] (also cf. John 1:18; 16:28; 17:5; Heb. 1:3; 10-12).

      Next, the word translated “form” (NASB) or “nature” (NIV) is morphē. This word denotes the specific qualities or essential attributes of something. Here, it denotes “the expression of divinity in the pre-existent Christ.”[5] It expresses that which is intrinsic and essential to the thing. Thus, in His pre-existent state, Jesus possessed (always subsisting in) essential deity. Warfield clearly expresses its semantic force:

      Paul does not simply say, “He was God.” He says, “He was in the form of God,” employing a turn of speech which throws emphasis upon Our Lord’s possession of the specific quality of God. “Form” is a term, which expresses the sum of those characterizing qualities which make a thing the precise thing that it is … And “the form of God” is the sum of the characteristics which make the being we call “God,” specifically God, rather than some other being—an angel, say, or a man. When Our Lord is said to be in “the form of God,” therefore, He is declared, in the most expressed manner possible, to be all that God is, to possess the whole fullness of attributes which make God God. [6]

      To deny that the Son was truly the morphē of God is to deny that the Son was truly the morphē of man, “taking the form [morphē] of a bond-servant” (v. 7). The last part of the verse (“[He] did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped”) has been a topic of much discussion among scholars as to the precise meaning of the term harpagmos (“a thing to be grasped/seized after” or “robbery”). But as we have stated, the meaning must be in light of the first part of the verse: “always subsisting in the nature of God.” Some would argue that the phrase (because of the article to [“the equality”] in the Greek) in verse 7 refers to the phrase morphē theou (“nature of God”). However, there are exegetical problems with that view.[7]

      A more plausible would be to consider morphē referring to essential nature and “
      did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped” referring to function within the Godhead. In this way, the two phrases (“nature of God” [v. 6] and “equality with God” [v. 7]) are not synonymous. Rather, if this is the meaning, Paul would be stating in essence that although the Son was fully deity, always existing as God, He did not usurp (seize) the role of God the Father.[8]

      2. The Self-Emptying of God the Son. It was the Son who voluntarily “emptied Himself, taking the nature of a servant” (v. 7). The reflexive pronoun heauton (“Himself”) indicates that the subject (Jesus) is also the object (i.e., the one receiving the action of the verb—the verb being ekenōsen, “emptied”). Therefore, Jesus Christ, in His pre-existent state, emptied Himself; it was a “self-emptying” (lit., “He Himself emptied”).

      The term “taking” is from the Greek aorist active participle, labōn. Semantically, this is a participle of means.[9] The participle of means describes the means or manner of the emptying. Hence, the Son emptied Himself by means of His incarnation (cf. John 1:14). The emptying did not involve in any way, shape, or form, His deity, for Paul safeguards against such an assertion in verse 6: “Who [Christ] always and continually subsisting in the very nature and substance of God” (lit., trans.). Further, the Hymn indicates plainly that it was not God the Father, as Oneness Pentecostals suppose, but the Son, who voluntarily emptied Himself and thus became obedient to death—“even death on a cross” (v. 8).

      3. God the Father exalted God the Son. Verse 9 reads: “For this reason also, God [the Father] highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name.” The
      Father exalted God the Son, who emptied Himself by taking the nature of a servant. Scripture teaches that the Son is “functionally” subordinate to the Father (cf. John 14:28); He perfectly obeys Him and always does His will (cf. John 6:38). However, this does not mean that the Son is not ontologically (by nature) subordinate to the Father.[10] Paul says, “the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ” (1 Cor. 11:3). But this does not mean that the woman (wife) is less human than the man (husband), nor, in the same way, does it mean that Christ is less God than God the Father. Rather, the passage is speaking about function and purpose, not nature. Since Jesus is not only God, but God-man, the Father exalting the “emptied” Son and glorifying Him with the divine glory they shared “before the world was” (John 17:5) is consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.

      4. “At the name of Jesus”: Jesus is the YHWH and thus the fulfillment of Isaiah 45:23.
      In verses 9-11,[11] Paul then concludes his glorious Christological Hymn with a “purpose of exaltation” (hina) clause:[12] The purpose of the Son’s exaltation was for the result of every knee bowing and every tongue confessing that “Jesus is Lord.” In verse 9, we read that the Father exalted Christ and bestowed on Him the “name” which is above every name. “Name” (onoma) is highly significant in a Semitic (“Jewish”) context. Generally, it carries the meaning of authority, power, or on behalf of (see 1 Sam. 17:45).

      In verses 10-11, without question, Paul is loosely drawing from Isaiah 45:23: “I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.” This passage is an
      undeniable reference to YHWH (cf. vv. 22-25). Paul, however, applies it here to Jesus Christ the Lord who glorifies the Father—namely, the YHWH of Isaiah 45:23.[13]

      There are further exegetical details that enhance the force of Paul’s Jesus-Isaiah connection.
      First, both Isaiah 45:23 (LXX) and Romans 14:11 (also from Isa. 45:23) contain future tenses (“every knee will bow,” every tongue will confess” [or “will swear allegiance”]) and indicative moods, indicating the future certainty of the event. However, in Philippians 2:10-11, Paul changes the original tenses and moods of the verbs from that of Isaiah 45:23 (and Rom. 14:11) to make, as indicated, Philippians 2:10-11 a purpose and result clause.[14] The purpose of God the Father exalting the Son, then, was for the result of every knee bowing and every tongue confessing that “Jesus Christ is Lord,” thus, the YHWH of Isaiah 45:23—hence Jesus will be the fulfillment of Isaiah’s (future) prophecy.

      Lastly, although most translations contain the phrase, “Jesus Christ is Lord” at the end of verse 11, the Greek reads, kurios Iēsous Christos (lit., “Lord Jesus Christ”). Here Paul places kurios (“Lord”) first in the phrase (viz. the emphatic position) to emphasize even more the Son’s exaltation as YHWH, the name that belonged to Him. The LXX translates the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, YHWH, as kurios. Thus, when a New Testament author would cite an Old Testament passage where YHWH appears, the author would use kurios (e.g., Mark 12:29-30; Rom. 10:13).[15]

      Since the backdrop of Paul’s assertion of Christ centers on the prophetic word of YHWH in Isaiah 45:23, it is only natural then that he would place kurios first in the clause,[16] thus making his point: kurios [YHWH] Iēsous Christos (“LORD Jesus Christ”).

      From start to finish, this Christological Hymn exegetically affirms the gospel of Jesus Christ; it affirms the two states of Christ, His humiliation (incarnation and death) and exaltation (every knee bowing and every tongue confessing that Jesus is Lord—the YHWH and thus the fulfillment of Isa. 45:23). The Hymn affirms two very fundamental aspects of Jesus Christ: 1) He always subsisting in the nature of God and 2) God the Son became man in order to die on the cross. The entire gospel of the Son is summarized in six short, but very powerful passages—the humiliation and exaltation of our Lord and God, Jesus Christ.

      http://www.christiandefense.org/Article_%20Carmen%20Christi.htm

    • I Guess some people who deny jesus is God, does not understand paul said jesus was in The very nature of God.

      The word translated “existed” (“being” KJV, NIV) is huparchōn, which is a present active participle.[2] The participle here indicates a continuous existence or state of continually subsisting.[3] Hence, Jesus did not become the very form or nature of God at a certain point in time, rather He was always existing as God, just as Paul expressed (cf. John 1:18; Heb. 1:3). The same truth is found in John 1:1a: “In the beginning was [ēn] the Word—i.e., the Word was “always existing”[4] (also cf. John 1:18; 16:28; 17:5; Heb. 1:3; 10-12).

      This is from a site, The thing is people can not deny that paul is only stressing His Humanity but His deity as well.

  15. nick says:

    Jesus shunned the traditions of men or at least when men favored them over the actuall word of God…
    now brothers, as we all can say we believe in Christ, we should all be speaking out of love and not just because you want to prove a point or want to disprove one belief or another.
    I believe Yeshua is the son of YHVH, you might say…his clone…he was begot by the father, god from god. two seperate beings with one goal…Jesus and JEHOVAH are one as you all and i are one with christ.

    his sacrifice was perfect as he came from the father…it is said over and over, The messiah is the image if god, he resembles him…if you look like someone you cant BE that person…you must read everything about Jesus and the overwhelming majority says…he is the son of God. check out 1 Corinthians 15:20-28….
    now if you think about the foreshadowing with Avraham and Yitz’ach, YHVH Wanted to sew of Avraham loved,trusted him to the point of sacrificing his own son! As GOD Himself was going to do for him, and his descendnts. us.

    for GOD so loved the world,that he gave his only begotten son, that anyone who believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

    there is no one good except the father

    seek the truth…open your heart to Christ. he is the way to the father. seek the truth morning and night. humbly praying always…also dont hate one another as pagans do over our differences…love each other as Christ loved us…cruddy little sinners, we are all as nothing yet he died for us…

    • Greg Logan says:

      Nick

      Well said – I am willing to take that step. Though it is important that people who maintain the majority tradition understand that they are denying the genuine man Christ Jesus – whom the scripture clearly teaches is our Lord and Master.

      The rest of your words are good.

      Greg

  16. I see that this topic continues to be controversial, so to speak, and full of questions and misunderstandings. I plan to write on it again in the near future in order to offer some more clarity. Thank you for continuing to discuss and answer each other. However, I ask that everyone remain respectful. Any comments that slander a person rather than discuss the topic will be deleted.

    Also, at the bottom of this post I have added the links to the other parts in this series. They answer some of the questions that have been raised here.

  17. David says:

    Theos and Kurios are both used many times in the bible talking about Kings or Judges. Unfortunately with most of Christiandom being Trinitarian, the vast majority of translations are created with the translators own Theology read-into it when possible. This is just fact.

    Kurios:
    master, lord, sovereign, prince, chief, the emperor

    Theos:
    Things of God: his counsels, interests, things due to him
    Anything likened unto God, or resemble him in any way.
    God’s representative or viceregent of magistrates and judges

    http://www.studylight.org/lex/grk/

    It is also noted that these words can refer to God Himself, and are used as such in many places…but they are also used to denote human rulers in other places. Passages such as this, and others such as “God said: Rise to your thrown o God” and “Only begotten God” the usage makes absolutely no sense scripturally or given the historical and social backdrop. Again these translations appear to be “coloured” by the translator’s own theology, whom he/she believes is correct. It is safe to assume when coming across these terms, they chose the english equivalent that matched what they felt was most correct, and ignored definitions that the didn’t think were correct.

    My proposition is that the translation given makes no sense, given the backdrop of the rest of the Bible, or Jewry for that matter. I believe the proper translation would be “My Lord and my King”. Thomas is addressing Jesus/Yeshua as his master/teacher, and as the Messiah, the Anointed King of Israel (And the whole world).

    • Allow me to respond briefly to your comment. I have two issues with it.

      First, you say, “I believe the proper translation would be “My Lord and my King.” However, you cannot change the fact that “Theos” does not mean king; it means God. The proper translation is “My Lord and my God.” You can argue about what you think he meant, but you cannot argue the meaning of the word Theos.

      Second, context also seems to contradict your idea. There are at least six specific instances in the New Testament gospel accounts where Jesus is worshiped in person, and four of these occur after the resurrection. This would be idolatry if he were not in fact God.

  18. Well, if I may add my two cents, it seems to me that if people are disposed to believe in the Trinity, they are going to see the Trinity everywhere they look. It is not a question of scholarship, really. It is a question of people being committed to a particular perspective.

    When and if one’s spiritual growth takes him/her in a direction that they see clearly the fallacy, they will change. Then and only then.

    I studied the bible way too many years before finally admitting what God was trying to tell me all along. Eventually, the notion of an infallible bible, and an inerrant book, with plenary inspiration, tumbled down around me, of its own unsupportable foundations. But … it took me a lot of years to get to the point where I was forced to tell myself the truth about this.

    So long as people are laboring under the burden of maintaining that the bible is some sort a magical book that has no contradictions, errors or inconsistencies, they will force the book to say whatever they want it to say or whatever the people they respect have taught them to make it say.

    If you don’t remember anything I said, remember this: You have a responsibility to yourself to tell yourself the obvious truth when it bites you on the nose. Just don’t let your faith fall apart over it.

  19. Dan says:

    Why people discuss and contradict themselves on a single verse of the bible where Thomas acknowledged Jesus as His Lord and God. If there is anyone who denies the fact that Jesus is the Almighty God, let him meditate thoroughly this simple verse from the Gospel according to John.
    John 10:26-28, mention eternity. We all know that eternity as one attribute of God, belongs only to God. But however, here Jesus is explicitly speaking as the one who owns eternity. He says that He shall offer ETERNAL life to those who are his, can a mere man offer something eternal? I doubt that. I dont believe that this is coincidence or misunderstanding of things. Someone can not give something he lacks, or he hasnt. Jesus must be eternal or must owns eternity in order to give eternal life. John 10:26-28 is very sufficient for me to believe that Lord Jesus Christ is the Almighty YHWH..

  20. Mike Gantt says:

    If you are Greg Logan, or someone who agrees with him, you know you are on solid scriptural ground when you say that Jesus was a man. The question you have to ask yourself is 1) “What was Jesus before He lived as a man?” 2) “What was Jesus after He lived as a man?” and 3) “Where in the Scripture does it tell me these things?”

    If you are a Trinitarian, you know you are on solid scriptural ground when you say that God is one. The question you have to ask yourself is, “Where in the Scripture does it say God is three?”

    Full Disclosure: I am not a Trinitarian, but I do believe that Jesus is God. All glory be to His Holy Name!

  21. Krisi says:

    Ok sometimes I have to think about this because it can be mind blowing but with very careful thought, prayer, crying, and studying this is what I have come up with and I believe it to be correct. To be quite clear I have had a LONG journey and I know I’m not done yet. I will get more into that after answering this question. The very WORD of Yehovah created the world..he spoke and their was light etc. Yehovah says He is Savior and He will not give His glory to any other. (Isaiah 42:8) Now in Hebrew LORD is Yehovah; however, lord in Hebrew is a different word (such as used to refer to Moses in Numbers 36:2 compare to Joshua 17:4)..2 very distinctive Hebrew words but not so clear in English. Now in Greek however, the word lord is the same throughout (with no distinction)..for example Matthew 22:44 has the same greek word for LORD and lord G2962 – kyrios (but this is in reference to Psalm 110:1 which clearly shows the 2 distinct Hebrew words..Yehovah as LORD H3068 – Yĕhovah; lord being a master/leader H113 – ‘adown). Clearly, Yeshua (Jesus) always points us to the Father..even His own name. Full name is Yehoshua (Yehovah saves)..short form after exile into Babylon became Yeshua (which by the way if translated straight from Hebrew to English is Joshua..not Jesus; but when translated to Greek it became Iesous and then Jesus in English..another topic but wanted to make that point)…He came in the name of His Father. He says the Father is greater than I; He prayed to the Father; in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 clearly states even Yeshua himself will be put back under Yehovah..He will hand the kingdom over to the Father. So let me get to the REAL point..Yeshua is the WORD of Yehovah made flesh YES..He is divine, holy, true, the light, the way, the ONLY way to the FATHER…the WORD is the OLD TESTAMENT! Yes, my friends it has NOT been done away with even as Yeshua himself spoke in Matthew 5:18. Yehsua had to die for us because we transgressed the word of Yehovah and he gave us a certificate of divorce in Jeremiah 3:8..according to Yehovahs own law (which He himself is even subject to) had to die Romans 7:2-5 in order to remarry us and reunite all 12 tribes of Israel (not just Judah who is only one tribe). These pagan “Christian” holidays are NOTHING to do with Yehovah and His time…this is the VERY THING Yehovah divorces us over! Yeshua died on Passover, was/is our unleavened/sinless bread who was pierced and striped (google what unleavened bread looks like), rose on Firstfruits and was the Firstfruit ressurection to the Father, Spirit was given on Shavout/Penecost; Yom Teruah/Feast of Trumpets, Yom Kippur/Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles, and The Last Great Day are all concerned with JUDGEMENT! He came the first time as a suffering lamb and next time will be the ruling judge/god that Yehovah makes under His feet! Yeshua will rule for the 1000 year millineum (the 7th day..Sabbath day millenium)..as it states one day is as a thousand years..each day Yehovah created pointed to something and we are still to keep the Sabbath which is Saturday (not Sunday!)..when Yeshua rose on Sunday and spirit was given on a Sunday this was nothing new He was preaching (it was in fulfillment of Firstfruits..always day after Sabbath(saturday) and Pentecost (also always after Sabbath/Saturday). If Yeshua took away from the Torah (1st 5 books of Bible) He would be a false prophet according to Deuteronomy..and we would be following a false Messiah..which we are not He NEVER said he did away with anything.. The only thing He did away with was MEN’S traditions that made them transgress the commandments of YEHOVAH! We have ALOT of repenting to do (including myself) I’m still learning. But once you grasp what the word IS (as the New testament didn’t exist and everything was being preached and taught out of the old testament scriptures and warns of anyone taking you away from that WORD) then you know the real Yeshua and you will have a better understanding of how HE is the DOOR to the Father; no one comes to the FATHER but by HIM (The word, the truth, the light..as the word is referred to in Psalms all throughout in order to make our paths straight). I hope someone gets something out of this. May Yehovah bless us all who are truly seeking the truth and willing to give up man made doctrine!

  22. Krisi says:

    I would also like to add 1 Peter 3:6 uses same greek word lord here: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. (the confusion came in when the Orthodox Jews who Yeshua rebuked for keeping mens traditions and transgressing the commandments of Yehovah decided they should not pronounce Yehovah’s name and therefore call Him El Shaddai..the Name; or G-d or Lord…and in English this continued) However, Yehovah tells us to PROCLAIM His name 🙂

  23. Krisi says:

    A few more points I need to make that helped me understand:
    Psalm 82:6-8 I have said , Ye [are] gods ; and all of you [are] children of the most High. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes. Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. I don’t know if God is capitalized in Hebrew but I do know this is the SAME word in Hebrew (the lower case and the capital one) H430 – ‘elohiym which can refer to THE God or judges, angels, rulers..here it states this “God” inherits all nations. Yeshua is to judge the world..He states The Father gave him authority of all (for the 1000 year reign as I showed above He will be subjected to the Father after His enemies are taken care of) Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Therefore, Yehovah refers to Yeshua as God…being judge, Lord, King of the earth..ruler. Hebrews 1:8-9 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne , O God [is] for ever and ever : a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness , and hated iniquity; therefore God , [even] thy God , hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. This is in reference to Psalm 45:6-7 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. It is clearly showing that this “God” has a “God” just as Yeshua has a God/the Father and prayed to Him. Yeshua is God..a judge..the ruler..the Lord and the King whom Yehovah gave to Him; However He will give all back to the Father. This also made me think of another thing..as stated above He (Yeshua) hated iniquity as above and also in Psalms 6:8 and Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Iniquity is G458 – anomia meaning (copied from concordance) 1) the condition of without law
    a) because ignorant of it

    b) because of violating it

    2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

    Now the law in Hebrew is H8451 – towrah Torah! Who is Yeshua!! So Yeshua is saying depart from me I never knew YOU you who are without law/without Torah..because HE IS TORAH!!! HE IS THE WORD!! HE IS THE MESSIAH//which means “Anointed One” in Hebrew..Yeshua the Messiah!! These people truly did miracles in His name thinking they knew Him enough to go to Him and question Him; yet He has to deny them 😦 PLEASE PRAY FOR TRUTH AND OPEN YOUR HEART AND ASK HIM TO SPEAK TO YOU…DO NOT TAKE MINE OR ANYONE ELSE’S WORD…SEEK HIM..not man

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